1. I always saw it as Loki's and Sylvie's influence on the TVA as being the real catalyst. We see the the TVA essentially lay down their arms after the Time Keepers were found to be a sham and let these splinters reach the red line, the point of no return, and allow the multiverse to come into existence.

  2. To be fair, once He Who Remains is dead, there seems to instantly be infinite branches, there’s no way they could ever trim all of them. But I guess we’ll find out more in season 2 of Loki!

  3. Correct. And to go even further…it was actually Mobius and Hunter B15 who were responsible for opening the TVA agents eyes and showing them that they were all abducted from the timeline. That caused the branched timelines to go unclipped. HWR’s death just ensured that it didn’t get reset again (and he also knew it was coming).

  4. HWR knew about that though. He likely would have had a contingency for it, had the Lokis agreed to be his successors. The only thing he didn’t know was the decision they were going to make.

  5. I re-watched Loki the other day, and came to the conclusion that it's technically Thanos' fault that Kang is taking over timelines again.

  6. I wish they'd centre more on this plotline and have a stronger through line for all of the other stories. Phase 4 is too meandering. It needs the thrust of the story to kick in.

  7. And a step further, the Avengers’ slip up with the tesseract lead to Loki’s involvement. Further back, if Red Skull hadn’t sought out the tesseract, would anything have happened?

  8. I'm assuming that Phase 6 is going to end differently than how the Sacred Timeline was preserving things. HWR might be millions of years old, but he curated the Sacred Timeline in the only way he saw fit. That's also a situation where he is tired and looking for release.

  9. I saw it as He Who Remains having to keep the timeline pruned until the end of time or else everything reverts back. Either he would have to do it, or others would. And that doesn't seem super realistic. So I think his "winning" was bound to be undone eventually no matter what. This is just how it happened to occur.

  10. I thought so. It seemed pretty apparent that HWR saw Sylvie coming and allowed her to kill him because he was sick of being a god. I think he wanted his "true nature", a chaotic ruler to return.

  11. Oh, I just figured the job would be to find He Who Remains and have him recrop everything, essentially becoming a sequel/prequel to his story in Loki, where it winds up being a loop anyway. Sylvie and Loki never mention to Him that they're the ones that killed him and caused this, so he never sees it coming.

  12. I would love for phase 6 to end where the only solution is to place a "good" Kang in charge, and he essentially becomes He Who Remains. I like the idea of time being cyclical.

  13. He Who Remains took the risk of bringing Sylvie to the end of time, not knowing if she would kill him or take over his mantle. HWR put everything in motion.

  14. Also to add on to this Kangs started a multiversial war between themselves so ultimately everything starts because of Kang

  15. He Who Remains is the Kang who won, though. He’s had a million life times of gloating and isolation to calm the f’ down. And during that time he allowed people to live a life, so long as they followed the script he gave them. We don’t know all the horrible things he did, but we know he wiped out every other reality to protect his own. The man’s a savage.

  16. You could walk it back further, it all happened caused Loki picked up the tesseract in endgame, which happened because the 2012 avengers didn't let hulk ride in the elevator. He popped out the door, hit endgame tony and knocked the tesseract out and wham bam, the multiverse was born

  17. Nah, her actions are her actions. At the end of the day, she was the one who chose to kill him. HWR literally tries to convince her against killing him. She had all the knowledge available to know killings him was dangerous

  18. I think it's her fault. Loki explained there would be a power vacuum and she offed him anyhow. Dude was so old he was ready for it to end.

  19. Thats the equivalent of saying a murder isn't a murderers fault, instead its their parents fault for taking the risk of birthing them, not knowing what they'd in the future.

  20. I mean, if that's the logic then Reed Richards is at fault for ever having offspring that would eventually result in Kang being born.

  21. Well as he pointed out. If she kills him. Then he will end up as he who remains again. So she intentionally fucked everything up because she was selfish.

  22. Yea it was a quantum superposition, the Lokis were both going to take both positions at the same time until he observed them at the end of time. Then the decision was made.

  23. He Who Remains knew what he was doing. He said the universe only has two options, it opens up to the Multiverse and his variants are loose, or Loki and Sylvie take over his TVA and the universe.

  24. Yeah I honestly felt the excitement HWR showed after his script ran out was because whatever happens next, his boredom would finally be over.

  25. Pretty sure he said he wrote everything up to a certain point. The decision she made was after he didn't know how things would go down anymore.

  26. He decided to play a game with someone his actions had caused to grow up as essentially a traumatized feral child. He absolutely knew what he was doing.

  27. He guided her life because it was the only way he knew to keep the sacred timeline on a safe track. He couldn’t see past that point.

  28. If you want to blame someone, blame Tony. As always, it’s all his fault… He built the first time machine that lad to Kang discovering multiversal travel, wasn’t he?

  29. If Tony didn’t do that, then the Kang we met (He Who Remains) wouldn’t have held his post to keep the sacred timeline in check. Kang’s variants throughout the multiverse would have almost definitely wiped out everything else a lot sooner.

  30. He also made Hulk take the stairs, which led to Loki getting the tesseract and getting picked up by the TVA in the first place.

  31. It was He Who Remains who ensured that everything happened to lead Loki and Sylvie to him at that point in time. He chose to create a single timeline because of the multiversal war but grew tired of having to be the one to manage the flow of time and took a gamble on Loki and Sylvie - he knew he'd either die or they'd take over the TVA, either way he'd get his rest.

  32. Well, it's arguable if Sylvie would've gotten to that point without the and of our Loki, who wouldn't have been there if the time traveling heroes wouldn't have messed up and passed him the tessaract, which wouldn't have happened if Thanos didn't snap, which wouldn't have happened if they won the battle on Titan.

  33. One of the things I love about this phase's setup is that I strongly believe they're aiming to have things be explained in multiple ways, depending on your level of fandom.

  34. The Infinity arc was basically Loki's fault. When there is a fire follow the smoke and it will be a loki committing arson.

  35. No. Yiu can't throw the blame on someone just for triggering the last domino. She was just the last in a string of people to cause this.

  36. I don't get why people think Sylvie did something wrong. He Who Remains took away free will from EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE. He controlled them because he couldn't control himself(ves). Sylvie was Eve, she ate the apple and gained knowledge of good and evil. A man told her she was "wrong" to do so, but that doesn't make it true.

  37. Except hwr told her what the consequences will be and she still decided to kill him. If you know the consequences and still go through -- its your fault.

  38. No, because her entire life up to that point was pre-written. Including everything that would influence her decision. The choice of continuing to serve the Sacred Timeline or killing Kang may have been left to her in that moment, but everything that led to that moment and her choice within in it had already been set in motion by that Kang variant. For better or worse, he knew she wouldn’t succeed. Maybe not all of him, but at least part of him must have known that with the life she had lived, she wasn’t going to side with the TVA but chaos and freedom.

  39. theres no indication that Peter fucking up stranges spell is because of sylvie and leads to a kang.... nor anything from MOM

  40. Imo I think these next two phases (5&6) will be dealing with the fallout of her actions. We could very well see many different versions of Kang, Rama Tut, Ironlad, and possibly even Immortus

  41. In Loki it seemed to me HWR was bored, he allowed them to find him. "Good" HWR got tired of holding time together. He was basically trapped in a prison he created to save the universe from himself. He flirted with the idea of releasing the timeline and came to the conclusion that he didn't want to make the decision. He wanted Loki or Sylvie to make the decision for him so he could finally have a moment that was not in his control.

  42. Silvie’s intent was negative. She was selfish and wanted revenge without thinking about the consequences. The action itself is morally grey. Why have all the multiverses isolated because of one guy?

  43. Loki to Sylvie after billions of people die from the crashing timelines: "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them."

  44. Yes, but I think he who remains had a pretty good idea that she would choose to kill him. He had studied everyone throughout time and all their variants and decided to bring these two. He was tired and bored and wanted to shake things up a bit. Sylvie held the knife, but HWR pulled the strings on her psyche from cradle to grave.

  45. Everything relating to the multiverse is technically Sylvie’s fault. Her and Loki could have kept the MCU isolated, but instead she chose to open pandora’s box.

  46. I think fault is a big word here, we have no idea what the consequences would have been if she hadn't killed him. Allowing Loki to be the god-emperor of the Universe and all of time?

  47. Maybe he wanted them to experience the pain of a multiversal war first, so that they would fully understand why the TVA was doing what they do.

  48. I guess but it's dumb to pin events on one character, there's tons of factors leading to the big events, we haven't even seen Kang Dynasty yet so who knows. I don't think Sylvie had much choice anyway, He Who Remains had set it up for someone to replace him from the start.

  49. I think that if it wasn’t Sylvie it would have ended up being someone else. He Who Remains is responsible for a lot of death and there’s a lot of people who would want to get rid of him. Kang was inevitable really.

  50. Sylvie only got there because of Loki. That Loki only existed because the Avengers traveled through time to stop Thanos. That was only possible because Ant-man returned from the Quantum zone. That only happened because of that rat in San Francisco. it is the rats fault.

  51. Kang orchestrated everything in the MCU, free will as such did not exist. Everything was designed to bring Loki & Sylvie to him at that precise moment. He must have orchestrated the rat to allow Ant-Man to return from the Quantum Zone in order for the Time Heist which resulted in a past Loki somehow escaping and meeting Sylvie and getting Loki and Sylvie to him.

  52. You can always keep tracing things back to blame anyone. It’s the Avengers fault for screwing with time and sending Loki towards the TVA, it’s Thanos’ fault for erasing half of life and so on

  53. HWR wanted out. He brought Loki and Sylvie there because he wanted out. Maybe if Sylvie hadn't killed him, things would have turned out differently, but one way or another, the Sacred Timeline as we knew it was going to end.

  54. No. But then again, I still can't tell where the Loki show's ending corresponds to the main MCU timeline. and it seems like the multiverse concept from dr strange and spiderman is independent of whatever the tva said they are supposed to be

  55. Honestly Sylvie made the right choice because the alternative is that He Who Remains continues to genocide trillions on a mass scale. What do you think happens to the timelines he prunes? Oh that's right, they end up being fed to a giant monster or did we forget that? It's not even a matter of free will being stolen from people, it's that people are being straight up killed. It's downright dystopic. If you believe the Avengers were right to stop Thanos than Sylvie was right to kill HWR

  56. Honestly I respect sylvie’s choice cause basically he who remains whole motive is I subjugated the multiverse cause most of my variants are assholes so trillions of others have to be pruned for my variants.

  57. Kang happens. HWR just puts Kang in check. Without HWR assembling the TVA there is Kang. HWR can do it a long time but he can’t do it forever and seems to gamble on the Lokis. If there is still a TVA in the future perhaps Ravonna takes over, and perhaps that is the real plan ultimately. Can’t blame Sylvie.

  58. Just rewatched Endgame and I'm pretty sure it's Scott Lang's fault for even suggesting to Tony that time travel was possible via the quantum realm.

  59. Too simple an assignment of blame imo. But I ironically believe in this instance too simple wasn't simple enough. Ultimately in the MCU version of Nathaniel Richard, only he is ultimately responsible for all of the events that have probably been depicted in the MCU to this point.

  60. What is it with you guys and casting blame and fault onto fucking everyone in this universe. Just let the story unfold Jesus fucking hell.

  61. He who remains saw this as a possibility and decided to follow along this path so really Silvie seems like a person pretty far down the path to blame.

  62. Yeah, that’s what was explained by kang in excruciating detail before he was killed by her. What do you not get about that

  63. It’s Tony’s fault for fucking up the time heist, and by extension the Avengers’ fault too. Messing with the space-time continuum is extremely dangerous, and the Avengers chose to do it and accept the consequences of their actions. Sylvie didn’t choose to have her timeline pruned, so she bears less responsibility than the Avengers do because time messed with her first.

  64. No he didn't. There is a point during the scene where HwR says he can't see what's going to happen. Everything that was meant to happen, happened. In every instance besides this one, either Loki, Sylvie, or both chose to have their lives back. Then HwR resets the timeline, sending it back down the path of Phases 1-3. When Sylvie makes the decision to kill HWR, that's the point he stops being able to predict what is going to happen. As long as he was alive, reality was condensed into one timeline. His death allows branching timelines and realities.

  65. I think the easy answer is yes, it's Sylvie's fault because she's the one who makes the choice to change the status quo... but that's not entirely fair and I have a different take.

  66. Yes…yes it is. That’s the whole point of that scene. It’s like the architect scene in Matrix Reloaded. The war of Zion is Neo’s fault. The heroes still won in the end. The Avengers will do the same.

  67. As a Loki variant, she has a glorious purpose. This was likely hers. Either that or she's going to be the key to beating Kang in future films.

  68. I don't think it's all Kangs that eventually set themselves up. I think all Kangs Battle, but HWR is the one that ultimately wins. HWR is responsible for Phases 1-3, and I have a feeling that Sylvie and Loki were always meant to meet HWR, and that in every other instance they choose to have their lives back. Once they choose that, HWR resets Phases 1-3. When Sylvie chooses to kill him, that's when he stops being able to predict the future, and ultimately knows the other Kangs are coming since now the timeline is branching and he can't stop it.

  69. I think fault is a strong word. One way or another this would’ve happened, given how kang layed it out. It’s like the sun exploding.

  70. The thing about this situation is that it would’ve happened either way, that was the whole point he tried to make wasn’t it?

  71. Everything was planned by HWR up until Sylvie made the decision to kill HWR. This cycle had run a million times before. Phases 1-3 happen, Loki and Sylvie fight their way to HWR, he presents a choice and they always choose to have their lives back. Then HWR resets Phases 1-3. The only thing HWR did not count on was that Sylvie would actually kill him.

  72. Kang manipulated events specifically to put sylvie and loki in front of him. He controlled her life and experiences to that point.

  73. I mean it’s the avengers fault for not stopping thanos in the first place. They stop thanos then they never go back for the tesseract and Loki never gets it.

  74. Didn’t He Who Remains say that if they kill him but don’t take over the timeline management he was doing that everything that’s happened will happen again, so yes his variants will all be created again and there will be a big war again but that also includes himself being created again so he’ll eventually win like he did before and then manipulate things again to try and get the Lokis to take over for him when he gets bored again in the hopes that the next time they’ll agree? Do we know if Sylvie agreed to doing the timeline management or did she kill him then take off to somewhere?

  75. HWR was literally just Kang the conqueror, he just liked to pretend he was benevolent. In reality he had the entire universe in a death grip to satisfy a fantasy of a calm and ordered multiverse. It's the fault of the guy that got into his head that he needed to conquer all the multiverses and reshape them in his image, whatever it may be.

  76. I just realized Loki caused Thanos therefore starting the Infinity Saga and now Sylvie… she’s the one who started the Multiverse Saga…

  77. No. It has always been and will always be the fault of he who remains. He was tired and he knew that Sylvie would kill him. But he also knew Sylvie wouldn’t be able to get to him without Loki.

  78. Yeah I was thinking that if we get another “time heists” movie that part will play a big role.. Sylvie or Loki would have to travel back in order to stop that moment and make sure whoever takes over next is on their team rather than the Kang whose hunting his variants ..

  79. It’s actually Kang “paving the road” for This all to happen. It was his ultimate plan to be revived.

  80. Pretty much, yeah. Whatever monster Kangs got unleashed as a result of her killing He Who Reamins, which seemed to be the only thing keeping them from popping up, then yeah it's kinda her fault since he TOLD her it was going to happen lol.

  81. In a grander scheme it’s kind of the culmination of all human endeavour over all of time. It’s like blaming Kang’s parents for giving birth to him because if they hadn’t he wouldn’t have been alive to do it.

  82. I think HWR wanted to die, he simply got tired of it all and was hoping Sylvie would kill him to relieve him, he did try to convince her not to, but that wasn't his true desire.

  83. And it was Loki's fault for helping Sylvie, and it was Tony's fault that Loki got the tesseract and ended up in the TVA, and it was hulks fault Tony dropped the tesseract, and it was Thanos' fault they had to retrieve the tesseract from that point and it was.........

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