1. Yeah the Targs being patriarchal, more so than even the freaking Andals and definitely the first men (not even talking about the Dornish) is something that kinda shows up throughout the history of the whole family.

  2. Is this not a central theme to all of his books? Realism in fantasy and historical truth that female rulers were undermined purely because of their sex regardless of whether they were good queens? I'd find it a lot more unrealistic and 'pandering' to modern sensibilities if a female ruler in this universe were readily accepted and supported without any suspicion or even mention of her sex (eg- Sansa becoming Queen of the North without comment on her sex felt like pure, rushed Fan Service).

  3. Good ol' getting assassinated as a child in Crusader Kings because all your vassals hate that their dead rulers only child is a girl.

  4. I think no one questioned Sansa's rule because of the support from Lyanna Mormont. Who was not only a woman but a child.

  5. Some Northern Houses like the Mormonts have a tradition of female leaders and she is a Stark, so I like to think they waited until she returned home to Winterfell before starting the Civil War.

  6. Yes but “misogyny” and “patriarchy” are fun buzzwords to get the anti-woke crowd mad and stir up free engagement for clickbait.

  7. And the showrunners took that and interpreted as a need for more girlboss moments (in the second half). I hope they’re able to present a nuanced perspective this time and not pandering

  8. Sansa was definitely an outlier, but I think the parallels to Elizabeth I and/or Mary, Queen of Scots should be noted. She took the throne because all male heirs, which were placed before her in the line of succession, had become disqualified for their own reasons (Jon returning to the Wall, Bran becoming King of Westeros, Rickon is gone). No uncles left, she’s the last of the main branch, so the crown goes to her.

  9. It’s no the central theme. Characters have their own stuff going on, and they’re supposed to be real people therefore they’re diverse like people are in real life.

  10. I know right? Everyone's acting like the only way a piece of creative art can explore or critique an idea is to have people sitting around talking about it, rather than through themes, and plot and characterisation . I very much doubt two characters are gonna sit down and start talking about 4th wave feminist thought

  11. It’s like they somehow missed that all this shit goes down because some people weren’t ok with a woman on the throne. If Rhaenyra was a man, the Dance wouldn’t have happened.

  12. These articles are not written for the fans, they are written for people who never got into the original. They have accepted that people who don't like GoT are going to have some jaded views going into HotD, these are all to suck in the younger genz who most likley missed GoT or didn't get into it on the same level.

  13. That’s what I’m confused about. If anyones complaining it’s because they haven’t read the books and don’t even know the material. Half of fire and blood is about woman being skipped over for succession.

  14. Tapping into the anti-sjw crowd to culture war a series/movie??? Why didn't anyone think of this sooner..

  15. News outlets like to paint this stuff as part of the "new woke movement" whether it's to stir up the right wingers or get everyone in general talking about it.

  16. Exploring misogyny and patriarchy doesn’t mean isn’t a bad sign it’s been done well in plenty of media (Early GOT for example). What’s a bad sign is that they’re saying that it is. To me at least, a lot of media will state it’s diving into those topics then shoehorn it in and use it as a crutch for weak writing.

  17. If they can't write those themes more intelligently than stating it outright in the press and the script, then they shouldn't be playing with topics they can't do justice towards. People don't always hate these virtues for existing, but people do grow sick of them when the writers' personal morals are crammed into the plot instead of presenting them organically, or ya know, with substance behind it.

  18. Exactly, like that's one of the main reasons that caused the conflict, since some people didn't want a Queen before a King. But no, wOke StuFf BaD

  19. Bc this sub has gone full blown the quartering style anti sjw anti woke route. Anytime someone is recast as a women or poc it's some sort of secret agenda to ruin the source material.

  20. Not sure what the controversy is… this is kinda the whole catalyst for the events of House of the Dragon. Ya know, Rhaenyra Targaryen being refused the crown for being [checks notes] a woman. Sounds like misogyny and patriarchy to me.

  21. Yeah it's pretty central, like the central thing. I think maybe it gets confused because Rhaenyra is herself also kinda misogynist with her views that only she is capable of being a female monarch and no one else.

  22. I guess my primary issue is typically how heavy handed modern screenplays are when executing this kind of stuff. It lacks all subtlety and makes the viewer groan because it’s so obvious and insulting that the viewer can’t understand subtext and realize the greater meaning.

  23. Exactly. People are whining about it because they saw a big scary buzz word used in an article. Talk about snowflakes lol. This is all literally in the source material. We all knew this from the very beginning. None of this should be surprising or upsetting

  24. Did you even read the book or did you just assume that the source material didn't have the same themes because muh' escapism!!

  25. Medieval society where might makes right and everyone is out to kill each other is heavily patriarchal and misgonnist.

  26. I mean, I know a lot of reactionaries will pretend that ASOIAF isn't political to criticize this - but if you've read Fire & Blood you'd know that misogyny and patriarchal are literally 2 of the most present themes in the Targaryen family history.

  27. Yeah pretty sure that was prevalent in GOT. Plenty of women literally sold or traded for political favor. That's like the mode of patriarchal monarchy.

  28. This sub is such a fucking joke. All you people do I cry about a TV show most people have moved on from. Get a hobby do something else. Yall are just as annoying as The TLOU2 sub.

  29. Not only are they central topics in Fire & Blood (and ASOIAF), but also you know medieval history upon which the books were based!!

  30. I get that, it’s the Dance. I just hope they don’t make it seem too black and white (or uh, green) or tone down Rhaenyra to get yass queen slay moments.

  31. Theyre probably the two most popular topics used to promote HotD bc those are the themes of the source material. If you don’t have reading comprehension skills and the ability to pick up on the themes of the books you read, feel free to just say that next time rather than doing gestures vaguely all this

  32. But but but that's politics in my media! Just give me non political games and movies like metal gear solid, bioshock, call of duty, etc ....

  33. This is so fucking funny to me. Idk what George’s political views are, but I’m pretty confident he’s a progressive. What fucking books are you people reading that this is a shock to you?

  34. Man you’re mistake is thinking people watch and actually follow the plot. Looking at the comments here it looks like they watched GoT on mute and in the background

  35. If you actually read what GRRM wrote, his characters are well rounded and fully fleshed out human beings struggling within misogynistic systems. It is in no way a celebration and endorsement of misogyny, simply a realistic portrayal of it playing out in historically analogous situations.

  36. Why are people on this sub on posts like this acting like the characters are just going to sit around a table and talk about stuff like "so, what do you think of patriarchy and its effects on ruling the kingdom?"?

  37. Misogyny is literally the single biggest reason why there even was a conflict within the story. You know what would be weird? If they didn't explore misogyny at all.

  38. I’m thankful they’re exploring these topics and hopefully treating the audience like adults as opposed to creating a “Hey look, DRAGONS!” show.

  39. Because most people are reactionary and don’t think before getting upset. They saw “misogyny” and “patriarchy” and had their woke Hollywood bs comment ready before the comments loaded.

  40. Wow a fantasy story with misogyny, never seen that before 🙄 Just once I’d like to read adult fantasy that doesn’t have at least five rape scenes in it

  41. I feel like GOT has always explored and showed the misogyny and patriarchy of a midevil society. It allowed incompetent men to rise and become heads of houses, so when we did see a woman in power it showed them almost immediately that they were competent.

  42. A focus on misogyny was central to GoT. The flak GRRM got was because he put the sexism of a sexist culture on front street. This doesn't seem any different.

  43. ... how in the colossal flying fuck is misogyny not true to the world of A Song of Ice and Fire? It’s not just true to the world, it’s fucking center stage.

  44. Dude wtf is wrong with this sub, you guys have a problem with wokeness in showing a black character and a problem with misogyny. Wtf do you want

  45. A strong super straight male lead character who kills hoards of immigrants... Errr invading barbarians who has to save a damsel in distress. Then is rewarded with sex.

  46. Arguably they already did that in GOT through Daenarys Story (edit: and Aryas, arguable even Cerseis). But I guess that was to subtle for the HotD writers?

  47. The Dance, which this is adapting, does deal with misoginy and the "patriachy" (or whatever you wanna call it) quite a bit. It would be weird to take that story, strip it off all of that, and then make it about class?

  48. Nah, aristocratic characters that can't rule due to their reproductive organs and need to be content with "only" living in luxury are super relatable.

  49. As you say, it’s been done and with complexity and layers. If Disney made GoT, Cersei would be a Mary Sue. ASoIaF remind us that life is a little more complicated than that. The headline here makes me think HotD would be more i your face, in case you miss the point

  50. It would be bizarre if they didn't, as it was a huge theme in the original story. Of course S8 of GOT played it like they were good things. “Cocks are important”. 🤮 Hopefully they won't do that LOL, but who knows?

  51. Yeah, both patriarchy and misogyny was a big component of the Dance. Princess Rhaenyra was King Viserys's oldest child and his presumed heir, but Prince Aegon II was oldest male, despite Rhaenyra being older and the presumed heir, Ser Criston Cole the Kingmaker crowned Aegon instead of Rhaenyra when Viserys passed.

  52. I'm just waiting for the Gamergate/anti SJW crowd to start reeing about HotD exploring patriarchy and misogyny because they've never read Fire and Blood.

  53. Surely they wouldn’t kill their best female leading characters and make a standard white king… surely… oh wait :)

  54. Considering how misogynistic the story arches were for pretty much every female character after they ran out of book, I doubt this will be better.

  55. It was only bad in the later seasons cause it was poorly written, but everything was then not just the women. Misogyny is a major theme in the whole series, including the early seasons which are generally loved

  56. The old show did this too, but I never remember the writers or show runners making it a marketing point

  57. It’s really depends how they present it to us. If it’s anything like the remade ghostbusters, where they are constantly going “men are bad, bad men because bad, oh wait is that a man? Oh he’s bad” then it’s going to be shit just like that remake.

  58. Damn 6 years later and any time you hear "we talk about the patriarchy" your first thought is oh no lady Ghostbuster!. Buddy it was a bad comedy movie from a half decade ago. Let it go.

  59. In terms of atmosphere, plot, character depth and the scale of the fictional world, I have a feeling HOTD will be more similar to The Witcher than it will be to GoT

  60. Could have explored sexism if they had kept in the Arianne plot in GOT(with her trying to stage an uprising for Myrcella because she mistakenly believes her father was going to pass her over for her little brother Quentyn), but noooOOOOoooo, we had to get the Sand Sucks and strong womynz.

  61. Literally the first time Rhaenyra and Alicent were written about was the novella The Princess and the Queen which was part of a collection of short fiction called Dangerous Women, which was all about strong female characters. Yeah dog, those are the themes of the novella, and that novella (plus The Rogue Prince) was the basis of the whole Dance of the Dragons storyline in Fire & Blood.

  62. Ugh I'm honestly kinda drained on media where strong woman has to fight sexism (i am a woman). It doesn't help that many do it poorly #girlboss

  63. How dare a show whose main plot is a war started because the men in power and her own uncle couldn’t handle a woman leading the country because of misogamy and patriarchy deal with checks notes misogamy and patriarchy

  64. Excellent. I don't get enough of this commentary everywhere else I look. It'll be refreshing to see their take on these subjects inside a piece of fiction that I watch for entertainment.

  65. Nooooo not my escapism tv show about war, politics, class and gender!!! How dare they make the show about politics Political! What’s next!? They going to have Kings and Queens to please the woke UK audience?

  66. Since when has anything in A Song of Ice and Fire been simple escapist entertainment? It's been dealing with these concepts since the beginning. If you want cool knights and dragons, go somewhere else. It's never been about just that. Quality of HOTD aside.

  67. The question is whether they will explore misogyny within the setting or use the lead female characters as vehicles to present 21st century perspectives and empowerment fantasies.

  68. From what I can tell from the people on this post, it’s literally going to be review bombed because of sexists.

  69. Hope they learnt from Netflix Witcher that giving exposure of social issues doesn't save an otherwise mediocre show

  70. Of course it's also present and relevant in GoT/ASoIaF, but saying this out loud (along with the whole Velaryon debacle) like this just makes it look like they're going for progressive brownie points, and it'll be awkward.

  71. Having black characters is "progressive brownie points?" . Why are changes that involve POC always the spear head of the "my precious source material!!!" but never massive changes to story lines?

  72. It's an adaptation of the Dance, if you didn't think the role of women in Westerosi society will be explored then you don't know what the Dance is about.

  73. Medieval fantasy settings where women also have important stories to tell: Great, I might give this another shot. Maybe.

  74. Damn dude... GoT already had so much Misogyny... we know what it looks like... I don't think it needs to be explored either... they made it look pretty bad before... it was rampant and it wasn't glorified... everything in that world is misery under that regime.

  75. Ug these articles only come out when a series or film is bad and the studios needs viewers. Also how does the actor/actress know those scenes made the final cut? Dumb article 0/10

  76. I think people are having issues with this because it makes it seem like it will be solely based around Misogyny and nothing else.

  77. I think HBO is in for a very rude awakening, unless that first episode hooks everyone. We’re going to see a many drop in viewership. I don’t watch a show to relate to modern problems in society, I watch a show to get away from modern problems in society and relax.

  78. ??? Those are simply central themes to the Dance. I don't understand how "women not treated equally in Westerosi society" is in any way problematic

  79. This kind of social advertising really turns me off. Like I am all for media that tackles heavy social subjects (if they do it in a meaningful way and actually take it seriously), but selling your show on the idea it is "relevent" to social issues in the real world just seems like a desperate ploy to get people to talk about your shitty show. Idk man but I find myself caring less and less about this show these days.

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